INTERVIEW: Akane Torikai - part 1
INTERVIEW: Akane Torikai - part 1
Meet the creator of Sensei's Pious Lie, learn more about her early influences, and how feminism and comics intersect in her provocative manga stories
by Deb Aoki
With the Kodansha Manga’s release of Sensei’s Pious Lie (Sensei no Shiroi Uso) in early 2022, many readers in N. America got their first taste of Akane Torikai’s provocative, emotionally-charged manga for grown-ups. But there’s so much more to her work than this dramatic seinen manga story about a shy high school teacher and the sex, secrets and lies that simmer just below the surface, both in and outside of her classroom.
With delicate artwork, complex characters and nuanced storytelling, Torikai fearlessly tackles controversial subjects like sexual assault, toxic masculinity, trauma, suicide and depression in her manga and doesn’t settle for easy answers or predictable plot twists. Her stories are compelling and the relationships are often messy and sometimes disturbing. It might not be for every reader, but at its best, her stories feel real and resonant. If you’re like me, you’ll end up thinking about her manga long after the last page is turned.
Born in 1981, Torikai made her professional debut in 2004, initially drawing shojo and josei manga short stories in magazines including Bessatsu Shojo Friend and Be Love. Sensei’s Pious Lies was featured in Kodansha’s Morning Two seinen manga magazine from 2014-2017. Her current series, Saturn Return, is featured in Big Comic Spirits, a Shogakukan seinen manga magazine.
A few days prior to her first visit to a N. American comics event at Toronto Comic Arts Festival in June 2022, I chatted with Torikai-sensei over a video call. She was in Tokyo, translator Jocelyne Allen was in Toronto, and I was in Oakland, California. Even with the time differences (it was late night in Tokyo, early and mid-morning for Jocelyne and I), we got to discuss a wide range of topics, including reality versus fantasy in manga, sex and power, feminist art, her early manga influences, getting published overseas and navigating her relationship with manga creator, Asano Inio (Solanin, Goodnight PunPun).
Going to TCAF 2022, or want to keep up with Akane Torikai’s appearances at the show? Visit Kodansha’s blog post on Akane Torikai at TCAF 2022 to read a free preview of Sensei’s Pious Lie, plus get an exclusive digital wallpaper made just for this event.
NOTE: The next chapter of Okinawa will be in your inboxes on Monday, since we wanted to get this to you this weekend first. Catch up with the chapters posted so far, and hey, maybe consider joining Mangasplaining Extra as a paid member so you can read the whole thing!
A CONVERSATION WITH AKANE TORIKAI
DEB
It’s so nice to meet you! Thanks for taking the time for this interview. I'm really enjoying reading your work. I was telling Jocelyne that I can't stop thinking and talking about Sensei’s Pious Lie. It's a very thought provoking manga – I almost wish I had a book club to talk about it with other friends.
Also, congratulations on getting your first work published in English. It's long overdue. I hope you have a great time at TCAF, it's a wonderful show. I'm not attending the show this year, so I’m sorry that I won't be able to meet you in person.
(Jocelyne introduces me)
AKANE TORIKAI
I recognize your name from Twitter!
DEB
Oh yeah! (laughs) Since I read the first volume of Sensei’s Pious Lies, I've been telling my friends, “You have to read this book. It's so interesting!” I also bought this (holds up Mandarin Gypsy Cat no Rojo / Le Siège des Exilées) when I was in France recently. I was impressed that France has so many of your books published already (via Akata Editions). They're so far ahead of us.
Anyway, that’s kind of a roundabout way of saying that there's not so much of your manga available in English now, and there’s also not a lot of interviews with you in English yet either. I apologize in advance if some of my questions may seem a little basic, but I hope our conversation today will maybe help more people understand more about you and your manga. So let’s dive right in.
Before we connected with you today, Jocelyne and I were talking about how you handle very controversial subjects in your manga, and how it can be very easy for people to misunderstand your intentions. Is that something that happens for you in Japan as well?
AKANE TORIKAI
I haven’t read some of the reviews in English for Sensei’s Pious Lie yet, but from what you’ve read, are they commenting about something they don’t like in this manga or its characters? Are they saying that the character are saying message that are not good, or that this book glorifies sexual assault? I guess I don’t really understand that reading of this story. I’d like to know more about what the controversial aspects of this story were (for these readers), and why they came away with those impressions.
DEB
I’ll try to clarify a bit. What I find really interesting about your work is that you're showing controversial, heavy situations and messy relationships in a very real kind of way. By that, I mean there’s no simple “good people” or “bad people.” Instead of black and white, your characters have a lot of shades of gray.
So these greys, these nuances in these characters and their actions can make it hard for people to understand your intentions clearly, maybe because readers are so used to black and the white characterizations. Does that make sense?
AKANE TORIKAI
I see. So as far as my manga being kind of misunderstood in that way in Japan, that doesn’t really happen much, actually. I am sure there must be some people who read my work like that. I don't think the number is zero, but at the same time, I think there are definitely people out there who also hate my work, and that's fine too.
But I was interviewed for a French publication and they asked me a similar question. In the French interview, they were asking me that when I create manga that puts out these opinions that are not my actual opinions, by having so many characters who were saying things that are different from my own opinions, doesn't that risk conveying a message that isn't the message that I'm trying to convey? Doesn't it risk telling my readers something else entirely? That was the first time I've ever been asked anything like that. As more of my work is being published abroad, I’m getting asked about this kind of thing for the first time. I've never had this experience in Japan, so I don't really understand it. To be honest, it kind of worried me. The thought that someone would think that I have these kinds of sexist ideas or thinking these thoughts that are so different from what I am trying to say – that possibility never even occurred to me.
DEB
How did you feel when you heard that?
AKANE TORIKAI
To be honest, it kind of worried me. The thought that someone would think that I have these kinds of sexist ideas or thinking these thoughts that are so different from what I am trying to say – that possibility never even occurred to me.
Even in Japan, when I'm making my manga, I can't decide how a reader is going to take that in or how they're going to perceive it. So even with a small possibility of my messages or intentions being taken a certain way, well… that’s just how those readers are going to perceive it.
I could make a more simple, straightforward manga that's like me saying, “This is the correct message, this is the incorrect message,” and make my intentions very clear, or say it in a straightforward way, but that's not my style. That's not how I write and that's not the way I make manga.
I think if you’ve read my works, you should understand that. When you create manga, you have your own idiosyncrasies, and your personality will come through in the way that they draw. But at the same time, if people are taking my message in the wrong way, I am sort of forced to consider my own responsibility in that.
But putting those messages in my stories, revealing them gradually and doing it slowly and doing it with subtlety, I think that's just how I work. I could do a really straightforward manga and tell the story very straightforwardly, or in a more simple way, but I think the quality of the story and the work would suffer if I did that.
DEB
I can definitely understand that. But perhaps these nuances, the uncomfortable aspects of the different characters in your manga and the way that you tell your story is so compelling because it's so different. It makes me uncomfortable as a reader sometimes, but in a way that I think is good and thought-provoking.
AKANE TORIKAI
I get told that all the time in Japan too.
DEB
Oh, is that right? Wow.
It maybe made me realize that as a longtime reader of shojo and josei manga stories, I’ve gotten used to the way women's stories are told in manga – that the stories usually unfold in ways that make me feel comfortable, or let me escape from everyday life.
Your stories, on the other hand, make me confront my feelings about being a woman – both regarding things I did, said and felt when I was in high school and the way I feel now as an older woman, and everything in between. This only happened because your work is so provocative and challenging. So thank you for that.
NOTE: Check out Akane Torikai’s interview with Arthur Bayon at Le Figaro. It’s in French, but can be read in English thanks to the miracles of automatic translation browser plug-ins. ;-)
MANGA INFLUENCES: OKAZAKI, ANNO, FURUYA
DEB
I read somewhere that you were inspired by Kyoko Okazaki (creator of Mangasplaining pick Helter Skelter, Pink, and the upcoming Kodansha release, River’s Edge). Could you tell me a little bit more about how and when you first encountered her work and why you were inspired by her work?
AKANE TORIKAI
Well, I first read Kyoko Okazaki’s manga when I was in junior high, in grade seven so I must have been about 13 years old? I think that was too soon to be reading her manga…
DEB
Oh? Please explain.
AKANE TORIKAI
You don't think (being in 7th grade) was too early to read her work? (laughs)
DEB
Oh, I’m just curious about why you thought it was too early.
AKANE TORIKAI
(laughs) Right, so regarding how I was influenced by Kyoko Okazaki’s manga… The manga that I had been reading up until that point was very typical shojo manga stuff. There's a boy, there's a girl, and the boyfriend is so nice, and he's this hot guy. The girl has a sweet personality. They meet, they kiss, and it’s all happily ever after, you know? So I was reading all that kind of shojo manga.
The first time I came across Kyoko Okazaki’s manga was because I knew this sort of “bad girl” in junior high, and she brought in a lady's comics magazine to school. That's how I first got introduced to Okazaki’s work.
I think the first story of hers that I read was Reizoku Onna (Refrigerator Woman), and I was really shocked by it. I didn't know who had written it or anything like that at the time. I just remember being so shocked that there was this manga out there that was so different from the kind of escapist fantasy manga; stories that are kind of halfway between fantasy and real world stuff, and that manga that was totally different like this existed.
DEB
So did that inspire you to create stories like that, or prompt you to want to be manga artist while you were in middle school, or did that moment when you decided to become a professional manga artist come later?
AKANE TORIKAI
I decided to become a manga artist long, long after that. When I went to university, I went to art school. All the people around me were real dreamers, like no one was doing the usual job hunting, or going out and getting real jobs. A lot of them were fine artists, the kind of people who were in that fine art world and wanted to be in that world.
But, I had this very realistic perspective on this – that I have to work, I have to be independent. I knew I needed to be able to stand on my own two feet, but I also didn’t want to get a “real job.” I didn’t want to do that usual job hunting thing, where you put on a suit and go around to the companies to interview for a job.
So I just sat myself down and asked myself, ‘What can I do? What are my abilities? What are my strengths?’ From that, I thought that I could become a manga artist, I guess. Being a manga artist wasn't a big, burning passion thing for me. It was more like this was a job I could get.
DEB
Interesting. I can relate. I went to art school too. (laughs)
AKANE TORIKAI
If I hadn't read Kyoko Okazaki’s manga back then at that time, maybe I would have thought differently.
Up ‘til that point, manga was like otaku or nerd culture to me. It wasn't considered to be a “cool” job. This is how I felt back then, because I was someone who could get into art school. At the time, I didn’t want to do work that wasn’t cool or stylish. If I hadn’t read Kyoko Okazaki’s manga when I was younger, I don’t think I would have considered being a manga artist as being a career option for me.
Of course, manga doesn't have to be cool. That’s not that's not the point, right? I was just young and I had really stupid like prejudices about things like that. But at the time, I thought Kyoko Okazaki’s manga was cool, so it gave me that opening to consider being a manga artist.
DEB
I thought it was interesting that you mentioned Kyoko Okazaki as an artistic influence because your art style is so different than hers, but you also have your own art style that has a distinctive visual and emotional impact.
AKANE TORIKAI
Thank you. That makes me happy to hear.
DEB
So the more I thought about it, I realized that your artwork uses a lot of very light, delicate linework, and it conveys a wistful, soft feeling while telling stories that are very emotionally impactful, sometimes very hard and dark. Is that on purpose?
AKANE TORIKAI
Yes, it’s on purpose.
DEB
Ah, nice! Excellent.
AKANE TORIKAI
As far as other artists who have influenced me, other than Kyoko Okazaki, I’d have to say Minoru Furuya-sensei.
DEB
Oh, the creator of Ciguatera?
AKANE TORIKAI
Yes, right, Ciguatera! I love that manga so much. I was an assistant for Furuya-sensei.
DEB
Oh, I didn't know that. Wow. So tell me more – what drew you to his work?
AKANE TORIKAI
Ciguatera was such a huge book for me. I love it so much. I can't really say my work is similar to his, but as with other manga artists like Moyoco Anno (Sakuran) and Kyoko Okazaki, their images are very powerful, and they have a unique, distinctive roughness to them. Their stories are very powerful too. I think that’s amazing and very cool, but I don't have that kind of confidence in my illustrations and my art.
At the time when I was thinking about becoming a manga artist, I was worried about that. That's when I really got stuck on Furuya’s work. He's been published in Young Magazine for a long time, and he's very, very popular.
So with Ciguatera, the art was a standard mainstream style, meaning that it didn’t have any strong visual idiosyncrasies. But even so, he just drew the people as they are. Those fine lines are there, but the story gets heavier and heavier, right? I thought that contrast was really cool. I really love that contrast.
I was feeling like, I can't really draw the kind of really distinctive, idiosyncratic kind of illustrations that Okazaki or Anno draw, but I can put those things together: combining subdued art with a really powerful story to create my own style. I think that was something that seemed better suited for me – it just fit me better. So that was all thanks to Ciguatera.
DEB
I didn't know you were an assistant with him! It makes sense now. I had only read Ciguatera very recently – it was released in English by Kodansha within the past year or so (it was originally serialized in Japan from 2003-2005). But now that you’ve told me this, I can definitely see the connection, especially since reading the first volume of Ciguatera was also a similarly uncomfortable experience for me because it had a few moments that felt raw, real and sometimes painfully awkward. That said, I probably would not have made the connection between you two unless you told me.
So knowing that, I’d like to hear more about what happened between you saying, “I'm an art student. I want to be a manga artist,” to you being an assistant to a pretty well-known manga creator. How did that happen?
AKANE TORIKAI
So in many manga magazines, there’s sometimes a section or advertisement with news from the editorial department. I just happened to see that they were looking for an assistant for Furuya.
So I drew something and sent it in. I had already made my professional debut as a manga artist at that point. I was living in Tokyo by then, and I was working a part-time job. It just happened that I lived quite close to where Furuya-sensei lives. So I got hired more because I lived close to him rather than anything based on the strength of my drawing skills. (laughs)
DEB
Amazing. That’s an “it can only happen in Tokyo” story. It’s almost like destiny, because your sensibilities really work well together with Furuya-sensei’s. Do you still get advice from him or is there any advice you remember getting from him while you were working as his assistant?
AKANE TORIKAI
I'm not sure if it was when I was his assistant, before I had any ongoing series, when I was drawing a lot of one-shot stories for different magazines… but I remember Furuya-sensei telling me very firmly that I should be creating manga where people are just speaking normally, with everyday, casual conversation.
At the time, I was drawing some shojo manga stories along with some more adult type stories, but still copying the things that I had read or seen in manga. I was still including feminist ideas in my work, asking “why do men and women…?” but Furuya was the one who really encouraged me to go on this path that I’m on now.
FEMINIST ART, FEMINIST COMICS
DEB
Interesting. This is a bit of a side note, but when we were talking about your art style using soft, delicate lines while depicting subjects that are dark and hard, it reminded me of feminist art by Judy Chicago, and feminist fine artists like her, who confront people's beliefs about women being soft and pretty and that “women’s art” should be about making pretty things, by taking traditional “women’s art,” like embroidery, quilting, and other decorative arts, and infusing it with content that confronts what it's like to be a woman in a not-so-pretty or polite way. So this contrast between “soft and delicate manga art” and heavy, messy sexual relationships in your stories was really striking to me.
Are you familiar with Judy Chicago? She made a dinner party art installation where all the plates evoke vulva… Pretty vaginas in the middle of the plates. It was created in 1979, so maybe it was before your time?
[Note: The Dinner Party by Judy Chicago is part of the permanent display at the Brooklyn Museum in New York)
Anyway, that’s what came to mind when you mentioned your art school experiences, the feminist messages in your manga and your drawing style.
AKANE TORIKAI
I didn't know about this artist, but I'm honored to hear this.
DEB
So I guess maybe this is a good segue into talking about feminism and how you include these themes in your work. So, for you, why is feminism and feminist ideas important to include in your manga?
AKANE TORIKAI
First of all, I can't write like any kind of fantasy manga. I've just never been able to, and it's not what I can write. What I can write is about reality – the real world, how I normally feel, and things that make me uncomfortable. That's the kind of subjects that I'm usually taking up in my manga. A lot of that comes from the differences in values between men and women, and how we see the world, so I'm inevitably forced to incorporate feminism into my work.
DEB
So right now, women all over the world are dealing with issues relating to just being women. We are always fighting to be heard, fighting to exist in peace, to exist without fear. In N. America right now, there’s the abortion debate in the courts. In some parts of the world, a woman can't walk down the street by herself without fear of being attacked or harassed.
So given that what we often read in manga is maybe a bit of fantasy version of what it’s like to live in Japan, and maybe a fantasy version of what it’s like to be a woman in Japan nowadays, what’s your take on what it's like to be a woman in Japan now? Are there challenges or issues that women face now that readers outside of Japan might not be aware of?
AKANE TORIKAI
I think for Japanese women, it's the same as in a lot of countries, with issues like having about reproductive rights, being able to freely choose to have an abortion, and things like that. In Japan, we have to deal with limitations that are similar to what women in other countries have to deal with. For example, Japan has very few women leading companies compared with other countries – we have one of the lowest percentages of women in executive leadership positions. So maybe women in Japan have it the same or worse than women do in a lot of other countries.
What complicates things in Japan is that Japanese women tend to be alright with just being desired by men, and making that the primary focus of their lives. They are almost childishly accepting of this situation, perhaps.
There’s this idea that being an adult means being independent and having the freedom to express yourself, and that’s where feminism comes in. But this is a very difficult country for women to do this because of this mindset, this underlying acceptance of the way things are now, and real pressure to conform to this way of thinking and being.
In Part 2 of my chat with Akane Torikai, we take a deeper dive into Sensei’s Pious Lie, and touch upon some of her recent series that aren’t yet available in English, Saturn Return and Mandarin Gypsy Cat no Rojo. We also talk a bit about her personal life, including her relationship with manga artist Asano Inio too.
For more on Akane Torikai, visit Kodansha’s Akane Torikai at TCAF 2022 page to read the first chapter of Sensei’s Pious Lie. You can also follow her on Twitter at @torikaiakane. You can also visit Jocelyne Allen’s blog, Brain vs Book to see her reviews of several manga by Akane Torikai that aren’t yet available in English.
Love her work
I can't think of any other interview with a mangaka that actually asks about feminism. Given how so much manga fantasizes about women's goals without actually asking women what they really think, this is so good!